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Talk:Suicide
Ira Gaines I think that Ira committed suicide, but he never intentionally wanted to kill himself in the first place. Jack told him that he could be protected, but Ira knowe that the Drazens were too powerful, and he was right, Nina Myers was a mole working for Andre Drazen under the alias Yelena. He deliberately turned around to Jack even he knew that he would die. Please leave your thoughts, I'm not sure whether to put him in the article. Vichy101 : I don't think he was suicidal, he was only a mercenary but his act wasn't one of a fanatic who would kill themselves rather then be caught like Masheer. I think that he knew he couldn't be protected because the drazens were too powerful, he was right because Nina Myers ended up being revealed as their mole and she probably wouldn't have hesitated to kill him like she killed Jamey. I also think that he preferred death to prison and being scared of running from the Drazens. That'S that I think. Julie777 16:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC) :: He was definitely suicidal. Julie I don't understand your point. If you cause your own death, it's suicide. It doesn't matter if you wanted to do it or not. Plus, there is no difference between the suicide of Masheer and the suicide of Gaines besides the manner in how it happened. They both would have preferred to live. :: Forcing someone else to shoot you is a form of suicide. Think about it: if Bob lost his fortune then jumped in front of a truck, you wouldn't say the truck driver committed intentional homicide. He had no choice in the matter, and neither did Jack with Gaines. When actual, distraught people pull guns on cops, the term "suicide by cop" is even used in courtrooms. :: Why isn't Gaines in this article, and why are homicides framed to look like suicides placed among the actual suicides? – Blue Rook 20:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)talk ::: It was a "suicide by cop" thing, which counts as suicide, so I included him now. -- Matthew R Dunn 12:10, 14 September 2008 (UTC) : It wasn't a sucide. Jack technically killed Gaines. He is the one who killed him but Gaines intention was to have Jack shoot him. Of course it was a form of sucide but Jack was the one who pulled the trigger. I think that needs to be included --Mstouffer 10:23, 18 May 2009 (UTC) :: I've been thinking about this and don't think Gaines was a suicide. His actual intention in the act he did, unlike Masheer, was to kill Jack. Although he would rather have died than failed the Drazens, his aim was to kill Jack and escape. He knew it was unlikely, but that was his intention. :: Additionally, a huge percentage of Jack's kills were him killing people out of self defense. The swathes of unnamed terrorists who fired on federal agents gave them no choice but to shoot and kill the terrorists. Some examples of the top of my head where the situation seems identical to Gaines (ie, he actually told them to drop their weapons and they instead tried to shoot him) is Alex Hewitt, Nicole, Steve Simmons, Ostroff, Dubaku's driver, Benjamin Juma, the terrorist at Mehran's building in Day 8: 7:00am-8:00am. I don't think any of these, or Ira Gaines, was really suicide, as their intention was not to kill themselves but take out Jack.--Acer4666 (talk) 22:45, July 24, 2013 (UTC) :: As for Blue Rook's Bob and the truck analogy - I think a more apt analogy would be that Bob is being chased by some serial killers and hits the side of a busy road. He knows if he stays where he is he'll die for sure, so he makes a dash across the road, knowing it's unlikely that he'll make it across but giving it a go as it's preferable to certain death. He ends up getting hit by a truck - I wouldn't charge the truck driver with murder but neither would I call it suicide.--Acer4666 (talk) 22:57, July 24, 2013 (UTC) ::: I tried reverting this back about a year ago before it was changed back. You have my vote for Gaines trying to murder Bauer while escaping, not saying "Ahh to hell with it" and intentionally throwing himself into the gunfire from Bauer (although to be fair, it's easy to see why this was misinterpreted with Gaines repeatedly saying he refuses to ever touch base in prison).--Gunman6 (talk) 23:01, July 24, 2013 (UTC) ::::Gaines actually never belonged to this page. No matter what, he would be death anyway. The Drazens would actually kill him (such as in the situation of Kevin Carroll) anyway. Gaines knew he would die, and thus be killed by Jack Bauer. --Station7 (talk) 08:29, July 25, 2013 (UTC) Suicidal people Also, I was thinking If I should put people who were willing to sacrifice themselves or if their suicide was misinterpreted, such as George Mason or Omar (Day 2). Vichy101 16:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC) : Yes I think that would work. Julie777 16:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC) What about Ted Cofell? Even though Jack hit him, he refused to take his medicine to save himself and is even listed as one of the "killers" in the Deaths on 24 article. Thief12 04:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC) :I sure don't see why not. OneWeirdDude 01:51, 13 June 2009 (UTC) Attempts, almosts, fakes, etc. How come there are a bunch of non-suicides, both in their respective sections, and in the Notes section? Shouldn't they either be in their sections only, or in the Notes section only, for consistency? OneWeirdDude 01:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC) Walt Cummings Wasn't it pretty clear from dialogue that Cummings was, in actuality, murdered, and therefore shouldn't be on this list? -Randy 07:46, June 1, 2010 (UTC) : Certainly someone should go through and reformat the article to make a distinction between actual suicides and framed ones. I did the same kind of operation for presidential pardons, to distinguish between pardons that were redeemed, and those that weren't for 2 separate reasons. Does this make sense? 08:52, June 1, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, that makes sense. I'll check out presidential pardons and see what I can here. -Randy 07:09, June 7, 2010 (UTC) :::Does anyone mind if I change this article to be more like presidential pardons? I was thinking for the headings having 'successful suicides', 'interrupted suicides', 'murders staged as suicides', perhaps 'forced suicides' to include Dorman and Buchanan? Any other categories?--Acer4666 09:40, February 20, 2011 (UTC) :::: Overall that's a better idea, and the first three headings you laid out I definitely agree with. But a suicide can't be forced by someone else, that's it's just murder, so we should leave out Buchanan. Dorman was just outright murdered too. 16:19, February 20, 2011 (UTC) ::::: I have re-arranged it quickly, I'm not sure if there are too many entries to be formatted like the presidential pardons page with pictures and everything? ::::: I don't know what to do with the various Jack Bauer contemplating a plan involving suicide. Also a couple of comments - I don't think Carl Benton should be there, he stepped on a land mine and although he was able to control the time of his death I dunno if it's really suicide? Also if Ira Gaines is on the list, should Alex Hewitt not also be on it? His actions could be perceived to be more out of naivety than Gaines' suicide, but I think he should be on the list. ::::: Also could Dorman and Buchanan go into BGIN? Dorman may have known about the bomb, it's hard to read from his expression and the events could point to someone committing suicide for Saunders. And Buchanan did shoot himself in the head, which wouldn't exactly be irrelevant on a suicide article - it could be argued that having a bomb that's about to kill you and deciding to fly it to the desert is forced suicide, just as being threatened with a gun and deciding to take a chance with a fewer bullets gun. ::::: Ah man, these suicides can be a grey area!--Acer4666 19:13, February 20, 2011 (UTC) :::: I just did some changes, including the move of Benton to newly-created Miscellaneous section; left Hewitt out because it seemed purely accidental. 11:13, February 21, 2011 (UTC) :::::Cool cool, it all looks good!--Acer4666 23:27, February 22, 2011 (UTC) Christopher Gerber He commited suicide in Conspiracy.Should we add him? : Sure, I'll drop him in a spot where I think he best belongs (subsection of Day 4). 05:02, June 15, 2010 (UTC) Dorman and Buchanan I think we should add Dorman and Buchanan. Though Dorman was killed by Saunders' bomb,he must know Saunders sent him on a suicide mission.And Buchanan was forced to kill himself.--William.Y.Fremont 16:47, June 15, 2010 (UTC) : I agree about Buchanan, but I don't think we're sure Dorman knew he would die. Thief12 17:33, June 15, 2010 (UTC) :I don't even agree with Buchanan. He didn't commit suicide, but played Russian Roulette against his will; he could have survived, and if he didn't play, Peel would have killed him. OneWeirdDude 01:32, June 16, 2010 (UTC) ::Ooops, and here I thought that Buchanan meant Bill Buchanan. Didn't even see the Suicide article to see he was already there. My bad. Thief12 02:18, June 16, 2010 (UTC) Comic and novel character Should we add those characters in comics and novels? -- 09:58, June 28, 2010 (UTC) : Yes, of course. --proudhug 16:35, June 28, 2010 (UTC) So we should include characters like Wendell Adams,Isa and Richard Lesser.Can you find more?-- 15:36, June 29, 2010 (UTC) Jack Bauer on Day 9 :I'm the second person who had added this and had this rejected. What is there to doubt here? There's nothing to speculate as there's nothing else that anyone could possibly interpret from him briefly raising his own pistol to his head then stopping himself from committing said action. That is all the proof one needs to determine and Bauer's face says it all.--Gunman6 (talk) 09:11, July 22, 2014 (UTC) ::Also, there have been five different reviews (here, and here, right here, here and also here) on the show that have gotten the same clear-cut interpretation, I find it hard to believe that people who are well versed with reviewing various themes, complex material and even literature in some cases would misinterpret something like this as well.--Gunman6 (talk) 09:30, July 22, 2014 (UTC) :::What are you talking about? He doesn't raise a pistol to his head. He gets out his pistol, then hears guards coming, so grabs his rifle and shoots them with that instead--Acer4666 (talk) 09:31, July 22, 2014 (UTC) ::::Okay, so he doesn't but facial expressions say it all with the whole "I don't want to live now that the love of my life is gone." That can not and should not be denied; how anyone couldn't read into that is beyond me. It's not speculation as he's not thinking about vacationing, Kim Bauer or anyone else before he changes his mind and goes on to avenge Audrey's death.--Gunman6 (talk) 09:36, July 22, 2014 (UTC) :::Please read the speculation policy. Reading whole sentences off people's facial expressions is speculation. Note that the policy does not say "speculation is allowed as long as it is done by someone well versed in complex themes and literature"--Acer4666 (talk) 09:40, July 22, 2014 (UTC) ::::Please read all five reviews and consider the fact that everyone else save for two editors is in agreement with what happened on-screen. It's not a puzzle or anything ambiguous, that is flat out obvious, this isn't a questionable disappearance of someone who may or may not be dead or some other loose end on the show, this is what is happening. He wasn't just randomly taking out that gun so he could bounce bullets off the wall and wasn't thinking about engaging in a gunfight until he heard Cheng's men make a racket, he was going to take his own life because he lost Audrey. --Gunman6 (talk) 09:47, July 22, 2014 (UTC) :::::It would also be speculation to believe that this wasn't the intent as there is no evidence of Bauer not thinking of taking his own life. How else could one read that scene?You can't, the evidence is right on-camera and the creators don't need to confirm it with an interview as it is what's occurring.--Gunman6 (talk) 09:51, July 22, 2014 (UTC) ::::::I agree that it's speculation to assume that's definitely not what he was thinking - just as it's speculation to assume that definitely was what he was thinking. It's speculation either way. I'm saying - we don't know for sure. So, we don't put either thing down as fact. ::::::I could give you a whole list of reviews that don't mention Jack contemplating suicide. Reviews are not canonical, we don't use them as sources for in-universe articles. Should we mention that Anatol Stolnavich has a moustache like a walrus's vagina, like one of the reviews says? They're opinion pieces--Acer4666 (talk) 10:15, July 22, 2014 (UTC) :::::::It's not an opinion if it's what happened and most of them have noted that; see other review here. There's nothing else that could EVER be assumed from what he was about to do. He's not thinking about Chloe, Heller, having Kate be held responsible or the current World War 3 predicament, he contemplated killing himself before hearing Cheng's men and deciding to just avenge her. The random dose of humor is irrelevant.--Gunman6 (talk) 16:08, July 22, 2014 (UTC) :::::When I saw the episode for the first time, I thought he was drawing an extra gun to add to his firepower, as there was no way the man who went to such lengths for vengeance in Season 8 would give up the chance for vengeance here when Cheng was a couple of rooms away. But, this is my opinion, so I wouldn't dare add it to any in-universe pages even if there were reviews with the same opinion. :::::At the end of season 6, Jack stares down over a cliff after finding out he can never see Audrey again. In Season 8, after Renee dies, he pulls exactly the same face that you have somehow interpreted as meaning "I don't want to live now that the love of my life is gone". The Season 1 finale contains a scene that is absolutely identical to the LAD finale when Jack is told Kim is dead. These moments can be interpreted as Jack contemplating suicide, and perhaps that was the showmakers' intention. But this page is not for these moments; this page is for when suicide is mentioned in dialogue, or unambiguously seen on-screen.--Acer4666 (talk) 16:42, July 22, 2014 (UTC) ::::::If it's what's intended as clearly seen, then that's all the more reason to include it regardless on whether or not they explicitly mention that. Nothing else matter for those brief amount of seconds. Jack came all this way to London to save Chloe and then when he realize the current love interest of his from many years back was still alive, he was all about getting back together with her regardless of her marriage scenario and now he had nothing else to ponder at the moment until that interruption made him remember what he came here in the first place to do which was off Cheng and his men.--Gunman6 (talk) 16:55, July 22, 2014 (UTC) :::::You should probably get some of your facts straight. Jack didn't come to London to rescue Chloe, he came to stop a terrorist attack but needed Chloe to lead him to Open Cell. Also he already knew Audrey was still alive. That aside, you're just adding to your speculation here and ignoring my points, so this will not be added to the page--Acer4666 (talk) 23:36, July 22, 2014 (UTC) ::::::And what did he do? He rescued Chloe because he needed her for the mission and wanted to save her from the CIA's captivity. He knew she was alive but he didn't know she was conscious again and happily married. You are the one claiming it's speculation when there's nothing to doubt about the suicide attempt and now you're pulling a 180 here and saying "I don't care, I won't change anything anyway because it's my wikia and we do things my way, not in a logical way." --Gunman6 (talk) 04:37, July 23, 2014 (UTC) :::::Didn't even notice this discussion was going on, but I agree with Acer. It's just speculation, which is why I deleted the mention from the article the first time. For what it's worth, I consider myself "well versed", and I didn't even contemplate that Jack was thinking about suicide when the scene occurred. So no, I don't think it's that clear-cut or flat obvious. Thief12 (talk) 12:47, July 23, 2014 (UTC) ::::::It's been noted by several different people so it can't be just exaggerated opinions if that's how it's been inferred. He's not even planning revenge at that point because he's still trying to figure out what to do now that his world has been shattered once more and the close-up of him taking the gun out of the holster and then just staring at the wall is still enough to figure it out. It's not rocket science.--Gunman6 (talk) 18:48, July 23, 2014 (UTC) :::::Like Gunman6 I interpreted it as a suicidal-type gesture of grief, and still do after a re-watch of the scene. To me there's no controversy. However, if Acer and Thief believe this is speculation, the safest thing to do is put it in the notes, which I just did. Certainly noteworthy enough to be there, at least, I'm sure we can agree on that. The conversation can continue in the meantime. 22:03, July 23, 2014 (UTC) Hey Peeps I've changed my mind again, there should be a suicide category. We have categories for Jack's kills, Renee's kills and whatnot, so there should be a category for characters who commit suicide. Problem is, I don't know what the name should be. I would prefer we call the category "Suicide", but I'm unsure if you peeps would agree with it. Would you be okay with that? Also, can we rename "Dawn Brigade separatists" to "Dawn Brigade"? I'd do all the renaming work if you guys agree. Thoughts my fellow fanboys? Again, I'd be willing to do all the work for the categories if you agree. I am suggesting we change "Dawn Brigade separatists" to "Dawn Brigade", and create a category for characters who kill themselves called "Suicide".--SuperbowserX (talk) 17:40, May 3, 2016 (UTC) :I don't agree with adding "Suicide" as a category because 24 had too many attempted suicide and adding that category would generate interest for users who would want characters who attempted suicide, which would be an unnecessary category. We're not gotta go there. BattleshipMan (talk) 18:54, May 3, 2016 (UTC) ::I disagree with the suicide category as I said on Category talk:Characters who committed suicide. I do agree with changing the Dawn Brigade category, to make it consistent with Category:Red Square and Category:Second Wave--Acer4666 (talk) 21:24, May 3, 2016 (UTC) :: Yeah, we don't call Second Wave "Second Wave terror cell" or call Red Square "Red Square crime syndicate". This consistency is why I made the suggestion. All done; pages in the category are renamed and the category now links to the new one. :: I still believe we need a Suicide category, but oh well. totally not salty about being shut down by you guyz--SuperbowserX (talk) 22:03, May 3, 2016 (UTC) Apologies that I wasn't around for this discussion regarding the renaming of Dawn Brigade, but it was initiated on an unrelated talk page. For consistency I'll post here. The renaming of that category really just seems to be a ploy to get Joseph Malina categorized there. I believe it was not terribly transparent to have the discussion over here, in an unrelated talk page, as well. When I created the category Dawn Brigade separatists, this was an intentional decision to keep the category limited only to those people who were loyal to Bierko. Please be more forthcoming with this sort of thing in the future. 18:15, May 16, 2016 (UTC) :I (though I suppose I have no proof) wasn't making a "ploy" at all, at least not intentionally. I just thought that was where he belonged: his presence in the categ and the renaming were (at least in my conscious thoughts) disconnected. Feel free to remove him if you want. But about the category rename, I still thing it should be this new name (though I wanna point out Colette was here before the rename I recall)--SuperbowserX (talk) 19:55, May 16, 2016 (UTC) ::I took a look at Collette's article history through the last diff of 2012, and could not see the Dawn Brigade category. It may be just a memory lapse lord knows I have plenty of them myself. Regardless, there is some significant evidence to support a move like this: Rita Brady/Darren McCarthy are inside Fayed's category, but were only "outside contractors" like Malina was for Bierko; as is Robert Morrison inside Marwan's category, who according to Marwan himself was not part of his group but merely taking their money. At the moment I'm still a bit divided about including Malina inside Bierko's category but those precedents are quite strong to keep him there. 17:57, May 19, 2016 (UTC) :::What line of dialogue are you referring to when Marwan says that Morrison wasn't part of the group? And frankly, he was a mercenary acting on behalf of the group -- unlike Malina, who didn't get directly involved, Morrison was directly interacting and working with the other terrorists so he should be in the category. As for Collette, my mistake, I checked the last edit before I came in (don't you love me!) and yeah she wasn't. Truth be told, I can understand removing Stenger and Malina from Dawn Brigade since they were external supporters (but even if you do this I would still assert that we call the categ "Dawn Brigade"). As for Rita/Darren... Toughie. They were part of the cell though, so... It's debatable.--SuperbowserX (talk) 02:21, May 20, 2016 (UTC)